DCK no where NEAR ready for school...

[CrazyEight]

I have an almost-4 (in July) year old dcg who I started about a month ago. The child is no where NEAR ready for kindergarten in the fall, and has a few other issues that I'm a bit concerned about.

She is excessively friendly and touchy-feely. To the point where it is not just annoying, but a safety hazard and an intrusion on others' space. She is CONSTANTLY petting, kissing, and stroking everyone, myself included. Literally, her hands are always all over someone else. She says hi to absolutely everyone we pass, and repeats it hysterically if they don't reply. She has now asked 3 separate neighbours of mine if they "have a baby in their belly," while rubbing her hands all over them. She seems to have zero concept of what "hands to yourself" means. I have to shadow her 24/7 just to give the other kids some space, as some, my youngest especially, really don't like being mauled to death. Then she'll just switch her affections on to me, and frankly, I don't like it either! I am annoying myself sounding like a broken record, saying things like "hands to yourself," "sometimes people don't like to be touched," "if he doesn't want a kiss then please don't kiss him," etc etc. The parents seem to think this is cute and have obviously never taught her what it means to respect other people's bodies and space. I'm a bit concerned over what's going to happen at school, because teachers obviously can't allow that, and she can't seem to stop herself.

She apparently had a lot of ear infections as an infant and because of this, her speech was delayed. The vocabulary has caught up but the pronunciation is very poor, and she doesn't get a lot of practice saying new words because she repeats the same few phrases constantly: "What's your name?" to everyone, myself included, millions of times a day, though she definitely knows everyone's name. That and "we going pick up the kids?" (meaning the school run we do twice a day, every day, to get the older kids). I have started telling her that I am not going to answer a question we both know she knows the answer to, and have told the kids that they don't have to constantly tell her their name again. Now they will say "you know my name," and then she answers her own question. I cannot for the life of me get her to stop doing this, or figure out why in the world she feels the need to ask, at least 20 times a day, every day, the same things.

She has the least developed attention span out of all my kids, even my youngest 18-month-old, and will not stay on any activity for more than a minute. She will not colour, only paint, and is more interested in globbing it all over her hands and body than she is about getting it on the paper. Concepts such as using stickers, gluing pompoms or felt shapes, etc, on to paper are completely beyond her. If I say something like, "let's draw some pink dots on our paper," she has no idea what I'm talking about, and will simply stare at me blankly. Obviously at 4, I don't expect them to sit there and follow steps perfectly to make some complicated craft, but I haven't been able to get her to focus at all at craft time, no matter the activity.

She has a strange habit of chewing on paper, which I've had to take out of her mouth numerous times, and last week started biting her own arm when my attention was distracted towards a round of diaper changes for the younger ones. Dad says she has done this when she's been told not to do something or is looking for attention. She also chews on sticks outside, and has had numerous time-outs for chewing sticks after I've repeatedly asked her not to.

The parents are not very chatty, seem unconcerned about her behaviour, and don't seem to realize that all of this isn't entirely normal. I have another dcg a month younger, and although it isn't exactly a fair comparison, as she is obviously quite bright, the difference is startling. My other girl will tell long, detailed stories if asked, for example, what she did this weekend, while first dcg seems incapable of answering a question that is not a yes or no answer. For example, "what did you do yesterday?" or "what did you have for dinner?" or "what sorts of things do you do with your mom and dad?" get completely random, if any, answers, like vaguely saying she likes carrots, or telling me she pushed her brother's head against the wall. I have yet to find out if the parents do anything with her or let the tv babysit her, or what she eats at home, or any personal habits or activities that she likes, or anything, because she simply doesn't seem to be able to answer questions that she has to actually think about.

I realize all kids develop at different rates, and she's not a defiant or aggressive child, but I'm honestly a little concerned about her cognitive abilities, and if she's at all ready for school next year. I'm not sure how to bring it up with the parents without sounding like I'm criticizing her, and I'm dreading this summer where I'll have a total of 5 older kids (my 2 are 4 and 6, dcb is 5, other dcg is 4) who are all able to follow directions, participate in crafts and science experiments, help measure and bake things, etc, and having to figure out what to do with her, since she essentially still acts like a very young toddler.

Anyone have any ideas?

[Fun&care]

Yikes...my 2 and 3 year olds sound way more advanced than her...I would be quite concerned for sure. What type of care did she receive before she came to you? Was she in daycare or just at home?

I know there are a few ladies on here with experience with special needs that will prob be better able to answer your questions but at this point this behavior does not seem normal to me. Asking questions over and over like that would drive me bonkers too...hats off to you because I know these things are not easy to deal with day in day out.

[CrazyEight]

Thanks, fun&care...the longer it goes on, the more it is obvious that there's a few red flags.

She was in daycare before, 3 days/week (that's what she is here too). They left because the previous daycare doesn't do school runs to the school they've registered her in, which is across the street from my kids' school (mine are in public, they've put her in the neighbouring catholic school) but also because apparently the previous daycare provider was trying to homeschool her own school-age kids while also running daycare, and the parents claimed she just left the daycare kids pretty much unsupervised and didn't do much with them.

Dad works from home, and apparently manages to work with her and her 15-month-old brother home on non-daycare days. I can't figure out why they don't want her in full-time, as I'm fairly certain they can afford it, but I know the grandparents are shift-workers and take the kids a fair amount during the week.

I originally had her younger brother as well, who I've posted about previously. I was concerned he had hearing issues, as he did not react at all to noises, even loud ones like clapping right beside his head, and would not engage with me or the other children at all, just tossed toys over his shoulder as he wandered around. I was already concerned about that, but it became apparent that he had medical issues that I was not aware of. They downplayed it during the interview and said "he used to have some breathing issues but they've cleared up," then after they started I found out that he actually has asthma...then the weekend after he started with me he had an asthma attack that put him in the hospital, and they have to give him a nebulizer (I believe it's called) twice a day and consult with the children's hospital. When the told me all this, I sent them an email saying that I was not comfortable taking him any longer with that serious of a medical issue. They didn't even respond, simply stopped bringing him. I assume Dad and grandparents are taking turns with him now, since mom works 4-5 days/week.

I don't know how the previous daycare didn't see any of these things, but if the parents aren't exaggerating, and she just let them do their own thing so she could homeschool her own kids, then I suppose it's possible. With her being the oldest, and the younger one obviously having delays, the parents don't seem to realize that there's anything odd going on. Frankly, I don't know how Dad gets any work done when she's at home. I don't allow a lot of TV here at all, but she won't even watch a movie for more than 10 minutes when I've tried, so who knows.

[5 Little Monkeys]

It does sound like she is behind in a few areas but this will be picked up on when she attends school and hopefully they address it immediately with the parents. As bad as this sounds, it will likely be easier for the parents to hear this coming from the school and "professionals". I would maybe mention it to the parents in a casual way and see how they take it though. Just by reading what you wrote, I am wondering if she has some sort of autism? Maybe asperger's or ASD?

As annoying as it is, if she does have some sort of disorder, it won't matter how many time outs she has, she will continue these behaviours because she literally can't control herself. It's frustrating though and I feel for you! Maybe being around the older kids all summer will be a good thing? Hopefully some improvement and help will come once she starts school in the fall.

[Lou]

I have this daycare child, except he is a boy. He doesn't do the touchy feely stuff but his QUESTIONS oh my WORD! Repeated questions, over and over again the same questions all day long and when I answer him he says "What?" after I've already answered. And these are all questions he knows the answers to. He is too invasive with other people (parents at the park, other daycare parents, adults at playgroups), and he latches on to them trying to steer their attention away from their own child and on to him, by asking repeated questions one after another. His attention span is NADA. Not there. Which is why I think he says "what?" after I've answered his questions..I think he stops paying attention as soon as I start talking lol. His parents also think the approaching people and firing personal questions is cute and laugh and say "awww". I have worked very hard with him to become independent with dressing and undressing himself, toilet trained him and giving him tools to calm down when he gets over excited. And he knows that as soon as I say his name,he runs off and plays away from the adult that has become his victim, lol. He just can't seem to help himself, which I think is just a part of his extroverted personality that he'll just need guidance from as he gets older. The problem is (always is) that everyone has to be on the same page with their expectations of the little girl, and as long as her parents don't see an issue there is only so much you can do on your end!

[Fun&care]

If it were me, I would make it clear that you are concerned and that you feel she should maybe be evaluated, because to me I would not want the parents to come back and say "why didn't you say anything?" Maybe they will listen, maybe they won't, but personally I would feel better knowing that I did my part and tried my best. If there is indeed a problem, this little girl needs help NOW not later.

[Busy ECE mommy]

When I hear things like a child who has limited language/repeats the same phrases throughout the day(sounds like echolalia), had difficulty answering open ended questions, eats non-food items(pica) and appears to have delayed cognitive ability, and has self injurious behaviour, and can't comprehend boundaries for personal space, my mind jumps to something along the autism spectrum. Try googling the checklists or red flags for autism/aspergers/ or PDD. You could also google sensory processing disorder checklists as well, because it sounds like alot of that is going on. How does she communicate and play with the other children? Is there appropriate role play/eye contact/back and forth dialogue/does she have repetitive bahaviours/ or line up objects?
Have a look at some of the checklists and see where you stand. At the very least suggest a hearing screening to be referred from the family doc. I suspect it's a much larger picture, but this child needs intervention from speech pathologists/occupational therapy/social skills training and probably much more.

[2cuteboys]

http://www.autismspeaks.org/what-aut...een-your-child

http://www.fsca.ca/?page_id=214

The above are links to the m-chat, which is a screening tool specific to autism, and the asq, which screens for a number of delays. You can do both with the child I'm sure.

The m-chat will give you results and information after you screen. The asq doesn't, as it's meant to be used by agencies working with the family. But it is based on developmental milestones, so if you choose the correct age group, the child should be able to perform the majority of the tasks. At least that would be something that you could show the parents.

[kassiemom]

all these things could be a sign of special needs or she could just be an annoying kid. and possibly the parents do nothing with her at home. Tough call but if she is starting JK in the fall hopefully they will get her the help she needs.

[CrazyEight]

I've done both the screenings that 2cuteboys recommended above, answered as honestly as I could (as I obviously don't know what she's like at home) and both came up with moderate PDD...which, after reading and researching it, definitely fits her to a T. I've seen a couple strides made in the last couple days, though: my husband the other day asked her what colour her pants were - simple question, but she's never answered something like that before - and she told him. She also told him what colour her shirt was. I've literally never gotten a clear answer out of her to a question that wasn't yes or no. So it's something.

Obviously, I'm no doctor, and I also have no idea what goes on at home, to try to gauge if this behaviour is the norm, or if she's different at home. It's hard to find a way to ask the parents...I can't just say "so, dcm, do you DO anything with your daughter at home or just let the TV babysit her?" lol...so I'll keep observing and trying different things and see if it makes a difference. I've got to start slowly introducing the parents to the idea that she's not going to be academically ready for school, though, because she doesn't know ANY letters or numbers, and with her attention span, there's only so much I can do between now and September.

Thanks for the advice everyone, much appreciated!